Abby,
I love your blogs. You are honest and write about the positive and negative aspects of your adoption experience. Thank you!

As for the above woman, I gave away my power by getting angry at her views when in my heart I know that will not change her mind (nor will it make her go away).

So, thanks for your perspective. She has been popping up on a lot of blogs lately sharing her "facts." While your life experience may be different, and all of my friends (who are adopted) may not have had that experience, and while my adoption experience doesn't fit her "facts" it does not matter to her - those are the facts she has read/researched/gathered so therefore they must be true. However, talk to anyone involved in the validity of statistical analysis and they can tell you that data can be manipulated to be read in a mulitude of ways. (Think construct validity, test-to-test reliability, etc. and you will know what I mean)

It is sad really, becuase I think there should be dialogue about what is wrong in adoptions (and what is right), not inlammatory, adoption is racist, evil, blather.

Thanks again,

Romee

"The most loving, caring, Christian act is to offer assistance to mothers in crisis. Foster BOTH a mother and a child!"

Abby, why are you assuming that offering assistance to a mother in crisis means an abusive and neglectful mother? That is a huge assumption. Many mothers in crisis are perfectly capable and decent women who could benefit from some assistance. There is nothing stupid at all about that idea.

In fact, many people think that it is very good idea - depending on what the mother is like. For some mothers, you might be right. However, it is not a stupid idea at all. From what you have said about your own birth mother, she probably would not have been a good candidate. We are not all like that!

Jan,

"The most loving, caring, Christian act is to offer assistance to mothers in crisis. Foster BOTH a mother and a child!"

The context of the qoute was about foster care. I have been a foster parent for a number of years and cannot think of one mother of the children I fostered that I would want around my children or living in my home.

This is not about birth mothers, mine included that give their children or infants up for adoption.

I am sorry you are taking this personally. I personally do not think birth mothers need to be living in a foster home with their children,kind of defeats the purpose of foster care.

Abby

Romee,

I am glad you like my blogs. I do understand that adoption has problems but I do not believe it is as bad as some make it out to be. Thanks:)

Abby

Abby, you bring up an interesting point...

While I was doing my foster care training (my state trains foster parents to "mentor" the natural paernts) I was provided with an example.

The trainer was talking about boundaries with the parents and mentoring. We (as foster parents) should expect to be hated. We would be just one face of the system that took their children away.

Anyway the trainer discussed that sometimes foster teenagers may mean fostering a pregnant teenager. I gathered this happened in a foster family that she knew.

She said this was one of the hardest situations for a foster parent. You want to protect the child and her child.

Romee:

FWIW, I don't think you gave away your power, or at least not permanently. You got angry, for good cause.....that's a human reaction and one we all indulge in from time to time.

When someone attacks the way you built your family, tries to shove "facts" down your throat and dodges honest diaglogue with a lot of sound and fury, you have the right to stand up for what you believe in. And you have the right to do so even after you become angry. This, of course, is JMHO and you should participate or not participate in discussions however you see fit.

Abby, great post. I agree with your points and I admire you for refusing to be bullied by a woman whose style of debate is, IMO, coercive, despite her claims to loathe coercion in any form.

Angela, interesting points...I wasn't aware of foster parents trained to mentor birthparents. Maybe that would be helpful....

"It is not in the best interest of the 130,000 thousand children from foster care who can never be reunited with family"

Mirah means that people aren't adopting the kids out of foster care - adoption as a machine that sells healthy white infants (first preference)and senmd people around the planet in search of of infants does not help the 130,000 children in FC. They are not part of the adoption machine.

Shell -
Actually, people ARE adopting kids from foster care (we did!), but maybe just not enough - something I think we all agree is a problem in this country.

Shell,

I have adopted three of my children from foster care. How many have you and your friend Mirah adopted from foster care???

I thought from the beginning of your many comments against anything I have said positive about adoption that you were involved with Mirah.

I have spent several days responding to your many comments left on different posts and it seems to just go on and on.
You have the right not to agree with what I say or believe. I do not agree with your's or Mirah's movement against adoption so this going back and forth is not benefitting anyone.

Abby

Naomi, I know some people that adopted from foster care, and this allowed the child to stay connected to their family. And at least the child gets to keep their original name. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it's strange how so many children are in need of a stable home life, yet so many potential adopters travel to other continents to get children.

"I know some people that adopted from foster care, and this allowed the child to stay connected to their family. And at least the child gets to keep their original name."

A lot of children adopted through foster care do not have contact with their birth parents. Their names can also be changed, as I changed my children's names and others have done.

Abby

Abby, how do you know it's not benefitting anyone? Maybe not you, and that's fine - but can you speak for everyone reading these posts?

If you post on a public thread, then expect others to question your views or share their own.

And I am not trying to negate your comments, just add some truth to the "other side" of adoption. I really don't know why anyone would not want to learn about all facets of adoption. Mirah is one person I know as an advocate in the global adoption community, and I just happened to know what she meant about the 130,000 kids in FC. You interpreted it one way, which is understandable, but I was clarifying for you the point Mirah was trying to make.

And the challenge re adopting three kids from FC was not relavent to this discussion.

Shell, what is your background? Obviously you haven't adopted from FC or you wouldn't be so bent about Abby very correctly mentioning it. Have you done guardianship? Have you done foster parenting? How have you worked directly with kids on or from FC, and if so, how?

These kids have many times been through hell, they do not need some uninformed person trying to take away the one viable option they have. If you have direct experience with FC kids lets hear it.

This wonderful guru Mirah, she has written two books? What is her direct experience with FC kids? By the way, it seems odd that such an experienced writer would need someone else to explain what they said.

Do either one of you have any direct experience with FC kids, or are you both self appointed experts? John

John wrote: "These kids have many times been through hell, they do not need some uninformed person trying to take away the one viable option they have. If you have direct experience with FC kids lets hear it."

Umm...where did I write that kids in FC should not be given stable, long-term homes?

Great job, Abby!

Shell:

I can only echo what others have said here. What is your background with FC children?

Is there a page where every member here has posted their background in foster care? Other than being a foster parent or adopter? I've only read cross-posted information and personal stories and opinions.

Shell:

I think the point is that there are people here who have had quite a few experiences with foster care. You are making generalized statements about foster care, but we don't know where you are getting your facts. If your experience is personal, say so. If your experience comes from reading other people's opinions, say so. If it's your gut feeling, say so. Be open about where you are getting your facts. There are all levels of involvement here, but most of us are pretty open about where we're coming from.

"If you post on a public thread, then expect others to question your views or share their own."

Uhm, sorry, but it works both ways. If YOU are posting comments to a public blog, you need to expect that people will question you about YOUR views....

"You are making generalized statements about foster care, but we don't know where you are getting your facts"

What generalized statements are you referring to? I don't recall stating any facts about foster care.

If YOU are posting comments to a public blog, you need to expect that people will question you about YOUR views....

I'm not asking people to prove their position or back up their points by providing their history and work in adoption/FC just because they have stated their opinion.
I am asking for clarification on certain points.

"And I am not trying to negate your comments, just add some truth to the "other side" of adoption"

This comment says to me that you are claiming you have some kind of superior knowledge ("the truth") about the "other side" of adoption. I think this is where the questions regarding your direct experience are coming from.

"Is there a page where every member here has posted their background in foster care? Other than being a foster parent or adopter?"

Not that I know of. Is the experience of being a foster parent or adopter not valid?

"I've only read cross-posted information and personal stories and opinions."

There's no criteria here that I know of to be a foster parent or an adopter in order to post a comment. It seems to me, though, that people with personal experience in adoption/foster care would be an obvious addition to a blog about adoption/foster care. You are entitled to your opinion and you are entitled to post it, but I would think you would want to listen to the voices of experience before coming out so obviously in support of someone known for their extremely controversial and negative statements about adoption.

"What generalized statements are you referring to? I don't recall stating any facts about foster care."

My apologies, Shell, you did not overtly state any "facts" about adoption, but you claim to be speaking for someone who does, indeed, state many "facts" about adoption and foster care. Since you were speaking for her, I assumed that you were in support of the "facts" she has posted here in recent blogs.

"I am asking for clarification on certain points. "

Clarification is fine, Shell, but clarification of what? I answered the questions that I thought could be directed at myself, but the only question I see you've asked of Abby is:

"Abby, how do you know it's not benefitting anyone? Maybe not you, and that's fine - but can you speak for everyone reading these posts?"

and you asked it AFTER she told you she is not interested in a "back and forth" with you.

Is there a direct question you want to ask about foster care?

"Is the experience of being a foster parent or adopter not valid?"

And I have stated that I am adoptee (once a foster kid), but maybe not on this thread - that alone would make me a valid contributor to any discussion on adoption/fc.

I don't see how wanting to share truth about the negative side of adoption indicates that I have superior knowledge on the subject. Just as Abby (or anyone else) claims to speak for the voiceless happy adoptees (does this mean she has superior knowledge on one side of adoption?). I am speaking for the other side. However, I am jumped on repeatedly, people get defensive, my words are twisted and I am told to state what my background is in adoption/fc.

Who is anyone here to demand I state my background?

Holy smokes....all I did was clarify Mirah's point and people got angry - why? I never said all children should remain with their families; I think removing children from unsafe environments is of course necessary (and I don't know any anti-adoptionist or family preservationist who does not believe the same thing). Keeping children connected to their people is what I am talking about...

I don't believe in changing a person's identity, sealing the original one and permanently disconnecting that person from their family.

I have seen children who needed to be removed from their families because of abuse and safety issues; but I have also seen children removed unecessarily then adopted or tossed into the system. They become a number to report to funders at the end of the year.

There is a very dark side to adoption and foster care - there are quotas to meet, personal and political agendas at play and extreme abuse of power. There are far too many people who are suffering and struggling day-today because of this.

My work in adoption/fc goes back 15 years - from working for a child protection agency, working in an orphanage in eastern Europe, being a big sister (for ten years) to a girl in fc, a parent aid for single mums, creating and facilitating a community support group for adult adoptees and fosterees, advocating for legislation to unseal adoption adoption records, host/producer of The Adoption Show www.theadoptionshow.com, an adovate for families in crisis (right now I am helping a family get temporary care of two kids whose mother is not able to parent 'right now') they are friends of the mum and want to help her and the kids.

Am I an expert? Nope. Do I have a good understanding of adoption and foster care? You bet I do.

Shell:

I think the problem here is communication and "understanding" of the "other side's" position.

You posted a comment on a blog by someone who is in support of adoption as PART of the solution for unexpected pregnancy. This blog follows several quite heated discussions about adoption, which I gather you are aware of. You posted a comment, in this heated atmosphere, challenging Abby' viewpoint. You continued to post comments, definding yourself (which you, of course, have the right to do) and pointing out errors and quoting what was posted, but it was at the expense of making yourself and your points better understood.

Are some supporters of adoption defensive? Yep. Are some opponents of adoption defensive? Yep. If what you (or any of us) are interested in is true dialogue, then we need to work WITH each other in establishing communication, not AGAINST. This goes for everybody, including me.

If you (or anyone) see me (or anyone) as the "enemy", then the conversation is going nowhere. If you (or anyone) can see me (or anyone) as a mother, a woman, an advocate for children, then we have a chance at dialogue.

So, here goes: I think, Shell, that most adoptive parents realize that adoption has issues. I think that the selfish, head-in-the-sand adoptive parent who just wants to "buy" as many children from coerced mothers here and abroad is as rare as some say the "against-all-adoption-period" people are.

Here's my issue with adopting from the foster care system: It is an agonizing choice. On one hand there are, as stated, 130,000 children in foster care. The system needs major reforms to bring it to a system that benefits the children. However, these children are fed, clothed and educated. I am not saying that is ALL that is needed for a healthy life; what I AM saying is that the children overseas are facing even greater abuses, such as: death, starvation, street life, gang involvment, beatings and/or rape. Is adoption taking them out of their culture? Yes, and any attempts dh and I make to introduce ds to his Guatemalan heritage will fall woefully short of actually living in Guatemala. But it's hard to appreciate your culture when you're starving or selling your body to survive. It's even harder to appreciate your culture when you're dead.

Yes, I believe very much that we (globally) need to find a way to eradicate the poverty in many overseas countries so mothers can have that most basic of rights....parenting their children. But even the best solutions are long-term. The question I have for you, Shell, (and any others who propose eliminating IA) is:

what happens to the children UNTIL solutions even begin to work? What are the timelines? Who suddenly keeps the still-abandoned babies from dying until all children have the right to a happy, healthy home?

I hope you don't see this as a challenge, because what I really intend is for someone who opposes adoption to actually ANSWER these questions. It is not a "I know better than you", it is not a "you're so bad because you don't believe what I do", it is not a "see, I can spit out challenges faster than you can". It IS an honest question and one that, IMO, needs to be answered so dialogue can truly go forward....

Thanks for your response, soblessed.

If you like we can discuss this privately. Email is theadoptionshow@gmail.com

Gee, I missed this boat. Ah well. Just curious, SoBlessed, did you get a dialogue going with Shell, albeit privately? Which I don't understand, but...

Romee

Romee,

Based on the responses I got from other posts in this thread, I don't see an open discussion on adoption/fc being productive.

Perhaps this is the wrong forum for such dialog.

Shell,

I thought you wanted others to know what the other side believed and thought. But when you are faced with some great direct questions about adoption, you decide to go private.

I think we all want to hear your thoughts. Stand up for what you believe!!!!!

"I think we all want to hear your thoughts"

Really, Adoptivedad? What exactly is you want to learn about the other side of adoption?

Well, as you wish. It sounds like you have a lot of experience, and I don't believe anyone has disagreed with the fact that there are widespread issues in adoption and foster care.

I don't disagree with all that M has to say, but I don't appreciate being called names because I am an adoptive parent (racist comes to mind) and I believe the other quote was something along the lines of "rich, sipping pina coladas and laughing at the plight of the world's children" which is an insult if I ever heard one.

I simply do not see her as an advocate for the world's children. There are plenty of others out there who do that and don't insult and tear people down in the process.

So, when you jumped into clarify her point no matter how right you might have been, well...

And the assumption that adoptive parents are so STUPID as to not know about the "other side" of adoption just tires me.

Romee

Shell,

You seem so concerned that people are not hearing the other side but when soblessed asked very good questions concerning adoption you run.

I thought you wanted to educate people on the other side of adoption. We are listening.

Adoptivedad...
You did not ask for my opinion or show any interest in what I had to say before soblessed posed the questions. Your interest seems only to have developed after I suggested we take the conversation elsewhere.

Romee wrote: So, when you jumped into clarify her point no matter how right you might have been, well...

This why I don't feel a discussion would be productive on this blog - I would spend 90% of my time defending myself (which will only get me frustrated and probably make me say nasty things). A quieter, less defensive atmosphere would be more suitable. I am already being challenged (ie I am running) just for wanting a different place to discuss! lol